LIFE, THE UNIVERSE, ETC.
Speech made to Perth Rostrum Club No 1 many years ago
I want to explain some fundamental disbeliefs that I hold.
1. I do not believe that there is a God separate from the universe, who created the universe.
The basic argument used by all religions to demonstrate the existence of God is the argument of the first cause.
i.e. Every event has a cause.
Here is the universe.
Something or someone must have caused it.
That something is God.
God didn’t need to have a cause because God is a pure spirit who always was and always will be.
The problem is that if this separate God didn’t need a cause then the universe didn’t need one either.
Recent studies in Physics and Astronomy now lead us to think it is likely that the material universe came into existence from a pre-existing energy source or alternatively came into existence out of nothing.
If you would like to think that energy source is a spirit and call it God whether or not it always existed, then I’m quite happy to agree that the universe is God.
However that is where the agreement stops.
After all we do have some evidence of the existence of a universe.
There is no such evidence of the existence of a separate God.
Secondly, I do not believe that a God has any particular interest in man over and above other forms of life and I do not believe that man has a soul which is destined for Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.
After all we now know that in genetic structure there is a less than 2% difference between us and a chimpanzee.
Why should we have a soul and not they and if they do, then why not dogs and cats and insects?
Will we all be born again or will none of us have more than one life?
My third disbelief concerns the authority assumed by the various religious groups.
Suppose that unlike me you were prepared to believe in a separate God and suppose you also believed that God had a special interest in mankind ; there is still no reason why you should then do the bidding of any one of the various religious groups that claims to hold the sole agency to define and enforce God’s wishes on a whole variety of matters such as when and how and with whom you should have sex, what you should eat, how you work and do business, what kind of government we have, etc.
If we do as they say they offer Heaven, not now, but after we die.
They know there is no risk we will come back and declare them to be frauds.
If we refuse their instructions they threaten Hell, burning us in everlasting fire for all eternity.
Each claims an agency from God, yet each attacks and discredits the others.
When I hear them accusing each other of fraud and false prophesy I can’t help thinking that least they have got something right.
The Catholic Church in which I grew up has got a way of dealing with people like me who stand up and publicly disavow the truth of its teachings.
To do as I am doing is a sin against faith.
I have engaged in wilful doubt, disbelief and denial of all twelve of the Church’s Articles of Faith.
I show no repentance and if I were silly enough to believe the clergy I would live forever and be punished forever in Hell.
What Nonsense!
I don't expect to be in Hell and I don't expect you to be in Heaven.
Live your life sensibly and decently now. It is the only one you will have.
International Humanist and Ethical Union
British Humanist Society News
- Parliamentary human rights report finds concessions for religion in Equality Bill are too great
- BHA proud to support POWER2010 action on Bishops in the Lords
- Humanists urge MPs to call for law reform on assisted dying
- Christian registrar case refused by Supreme Court
- BHA publishes its manifestos for local and general elections
Catholics do not consider
Catholics do not consider Hell to be a place of eternal fire in which people burn forever.
Rather, it is a state in which people who have rejected God find that he now rejects them.
They become aware of what they could have had and that now they can never have it.
They live for all eternity with a terrible sense of loss and this suffering is so intense that it may be compared to burning in an everlasting fire.
Thanks Mary. I recall that as
Thanks Mary.
I recall that as a schoolboy at a Catholic College in the 1950's I received both versions; the Hellfire version and and the psychological torture version.
I'm not sure which I prefer.
Like yourself my old teachers were eager to reassure me that even if it was not fire I would suffer, nevertheless the substitute suffering would be just as great as fire.
One thing is constant. I am destined to suffer and so are millions like me, former Catholics, former Muslims, and various others who have turned away from whichever "one true God" was inflicted on them in their childhood.
The more I think of it, the more ridiculous it all becomes.
The clergy who regale us with this appalling nonsense are serving their own purposes.
Some of them are misguided enough to be sincere and others continue the fantasy because it provides them mental and physical comfort.
One good thing. At least you are reading the articles on this site. You are looking at an alternative point of view.
Maybe you will continue your beliefs forever or maybe you will walk away from them.
Whichever you choose I respect your decision because you have at least considered the alternatives.
So you "respect" my decision.
So you "respect" my decision. You are sarcastic and patronizing.
I can make my decisions without your help.
There are some very good men among the clergy you are so anxious to criticize and there is nothing misguided about sincere belief.
If you continue as you are going I imagine you will rot in Hell and so will those who choose to accompany you.
Mary there is much the same
Mary there is much the same mixture of good and bad men among the clergy as there is in the general community.
As for anyone rotting in Hell, most of us simply don't believe that wild story which was concocted by ignorant people trying to gain control of the minds of others they considered to be even more ignorant than themselves.
Ockham's razor takes care of
Ockham's razor takes care of the cosmological argument in one fell swoop.
Dear Mary. You must
Dear Mary. You must be
Submitted by trulyfree on Mon, 07/12/2009 - 10:17.
Dear Mary. You must be joking. You cannot seriously believe that "there is nothing misguided about sincere belief". What about people who sincerely believe that women should be circumcised to keep them pure? Or those who believe that if they martyr themselves for their religion they will be greeted in Paradise by 72 virgins? I vaguely recall the name of a man who sincerely believed he was right to murder 6 millions Jews, gypsies and disabled people. Adolf something...
I suppose that you personally see nothing wrong with the belief systems of millions of Wiccans around the world, because it's sincere. How you could make any claims to open-mindedness - when your response to a considered and rational exposition is to spit the usual, trite religious vitriol back - beggars my own belief.
"Rot in Hell". Please. That idea was losing traction in the middle ages.
I think it is great that
I think it is great that there are people such as Mary and the Editor to put their points of view on websites such as this one.
It's good and such discussions surely help people who have lived their lives never daring to question if the reality they have been instilled with is anymore valid than the conclusions that they come to themsleves.
Everything is a convenient
Everything is a convenient illusion that we use to make sense of our existence.
God moves in mysterious ways.
God moves in mysterious ways. Is that it, Peter? Well he is not such a mystery to me. He wouldn't know his purpose from his arsehole.
God is convenient. It is a
God is convenient. It is a pleasure to drop a load on him. That's right, God is in the toilet with me.
carusmm you are responsible
carusmm you are responsible for even more of the mindless drivel that is on this website than anyone, even the Editor who seems to think he is an intellectual.
The pair of you would have to add up your IQ's to get to 50.
I have an IQ of 140, thanks
I have an IQ of 140, thanks Mary.
Well where do you think that
Well where do you think that leaves me carusmm.
Mary only allocated us 50 points and now you have laid claim to 140.
I had to get someone else to do the arithmetic for me of course but he tells me that leaves me with an IQ of minus 90.
No wonder I have trouble getting in touch with God.
Post new comment